Awards, punishments, behaviorism, positive reinforcements. It seems that the upbringing and education of children would necessarily go through these methods if it were not for professionals who work precisely in another line and who teach us how to get our children to grow as responsible, free and emotionally healthy people with another way of approaching communication. One of those professionals is the psychologist Teresa García, who, from his page Without Punishments, promotes and teaches mechanisms of compassionate speech and non-behavioral education.
From Babies and more we wanted to do this interview with the psychologist Teresa García and this time we are going to deepen in the behaviorism, in the dangers of the punishments and also of the prizes, to learn other ways to educate.
What is behaviorism?
It is a psychological current that starts from the observation of animal behavior
What about Pavlov's famous dogs?
Pavlov is well known, but so is B.F. Skinner Pavlov worked with dogs, Skinner with pigeons. Behaviorism tries to apply what it discovers in animal behavior, to human behavior. And in a way it works, but it's not so easy to make it work on purpose.
But there are many psychologists, pedagogues and psychopedagogues who use this branch in their work and consider it useful, what do you think?
Obviously, if they use it, it is because they consider it useful, but above all because they know how to make it useful. And we must know that using a prize or a punishment has very strict rules to make it really work.
What effects can cause someone to not follow these rules in the application of rewards and punishments?
There are really negative effects that range from lowering effectiveness to achieving the opposite effect to the one that was pursued. When working with animals, everything is perfectly controlled to produce the desired effect. All caregivers who deal with the animal do the same.
But that is almost impossible with a boy or girl.
Not to mention that it is completely impossible. Imagine that you want to punish a behavior, for example eating sweets before eating. But if other people you live with think that a “no problem happens” for a lollipop, the kid will probably ask the person for the treat, without your consent.
Is it equally difficult to use a prize?
As for the rules, yes. A behavior that you decide to reward must always be rewarded. So imagine that you are a teacher, and reward the silence while you speak in the classroom. The children go home and at home they are rewarded just the opposite, for talking (not every house happens that, but take it as an example) which of the two prizes will be stronger?
But if this is so, what causes these techniques to be in such a strong boom, both in books and in professional advice, and even on television?
That is an interesting question, and that my answer only fits my opinion on the subject in particular. Western and Eastern culture have control in common. Governments that control, even democratic governments, control through laws. In many countries there are still dictatorships, and in others there are still sequels to the dictatorships that were lived. One could say that for example in the US they did not exist historically, and it would be true, up to a point. That would be to obviate that the colonizers were European, and that they emigrated precisely escaping repression. So what is familiar to the majority, to the vast majority of people, are rewards and punishments, even before behavioral psychology existed. Therefore, this branch is giving a scientific dye to something that is popular culture in a wide variety of territories. I admit that it has some functionality as long as all the requirements are met. Even so…
Still what?
Even so, one of the biggest criticisms of behaviorism, in the animal branch refers to the "bad behavior" of animals. Some researchers, not as well known as Skinner, found that the animals after learning conditioning, from time to time returned to their usual instinctive behaviors, in addition to the fact that certain involuntary movements could be generated in the animals, or increased food intake or of water.
Are you saying that behavioral methods can have side effects?
I am saying that behavioral methods have effects that are not as well known or popular even if who applies them is an expert and in a completely controlled environment. In fact, if we look at an animal environment, such as horse taming, we will see that Western culture is based on rewards and punishments, while in Indian cultures, that dressage is based on "gaining" the animal's trust. As you can see, the theme of awards and punishments is quite linked to culture, even in relation to animals.
You say that side effects appear in animals, can you say the same if we talk about boys and girls? Are there any risks?
Yes, and of various types. I will begin by explaining the most obvious. Since prizes and punishments need rigorous control, it is very likely that you will get very different results than you expected. Hence, many times you hear mothers or fathers say that despite punishing them, children continue with behavior that they dislike.
What would you say influences the application of punishment?
The first thing that influences is the sensitivity of the organism. All people, and minors are in the category of people, have a different sensitivity, even changes at every moment of the day. If the punishment does not have the appropriate intensity, it will achieve effects that are not what you had planned.
What happens if a punishment is too weak or too strong?
A too weak punishment has no effect, beyond the discomfort of who applies it, and the generation of a pattern of "I can do what I want" in who receives it, something like "create picaresque." Think of the people who systematically break the "rules", as adults, because the punishment they receive is minimal. At the other extreme (too strong), you will find people who generate a pattern of constant rebellion or constant submission. The rebel is easy to recognize, or relatively easy, the submissive costs more. The extreme degree of the submissive is in learned helplessness. I give you an example, taken from our history. In the concentration camps, what was the majority of Jews or German soldiers?
Of Jews, we all know that.
Well, some boys and girls knowing the story wonder why if they were a majority, they did not face each other. And some others "justify" the punishment by saying that if they received such a harsh punishment it was because they would have done something to deserve it. As you can see, the punishments have effects that we do not suspect, encouraging comments on children in the style of "something they will have done." You can see see some of that influence in Milgram's experiments.
Who was Milgram?
Milgram investigated back in the 60s about obedience to authority in extreme situations. To do this, he designed a supposedly learning experiment, in which he demonstrated that a very high percentage of people obeyed orders that "killed" another person. The "dead" was an actor, who pretended to die, or be very serious. A very high percentage of people continued the experiment until the end, or to quite high limits on harm to the other person. That experiment was repeated a few years ago, the data can be seen in a French documentary entitled the game of death. What the researchers found is that the percentage of obedience to fatal situations had risen in these forty years. Thus, in my opinion, punishments produce obedient people. And keep in mind that obedience is based on the responsibility of another.
Does the harm consist in increasing obedience?
That is only part of the damage. Violence grows when we use these types of methods. A rather illustrative experiment at this point is that of the Stanfor prison. Young and healthy individuals were taken. They were tested to determine the mental health of all participants. Then by chance, some received the role of prisoners, and others the role of guardians of the prison. The consequences of the punishments are evident in that experiment, what was not so clear was the function of the awards. When the "prisoners" were very subject to punishment, they organized a riot. The reaction of the jailers was to introduce the awards. They rewarded a “prisoner,” and as a result the prisoners began to argue among themselves, so that the jailers, despite being in the minority (unless they worked all day and night) were in control.
Tere, wait a moment, are you saying that the awards produced that the jailers could dominate the situation?
Yes, exactly, the prizes produced that the "jailers" could dominate, and continue punishing. In addition, the experiment had to be suspended because of the anxiety and depersonalization crises that caused the "prisoners." It was going to last fifteen days and finally had to be concluded on the fifth day.
But the prizes have very good press, is a prize the same as a positive reinforcement?
Positive reinforcement and reward is approximately the same. There are different types of reinforcers, some are psychological, such as praise, and others are psychological and physical, such as "faces" or red and green circles. And other reinforcers are "bigger", like the big car when you're an adult. The interesting thing about a prize or a reinforcer is that there is "another" who is responsible, who decides who and what "you can have." In other words, it encourages external valuation, to the detriment of internal valuation.
But we are talking about boys and girls then will not have or will not learn to motivate themselves.
Well, something like that, although it also depends on the sensitivity of the boy or the girl, on the constructions he is capable of doing, and on what he is able to imitate and internalize. Remember, the different sensitivity in each person, and within each person, different at each time of the day.
But then, is it not appropriate to recognize what children do?
Recognizing is one thing and rewarding or rewarding is another. It is very different to say, "Thank you for bringing me a glass of water," that in the same situation you say, "Very well, you brought the water!" In one you recognize and thank, in the other you praise. And praise tends to become a positive reinforcer.
So far we have learned why punishments and rewards do not work well with human beings and what are the risks of applying them, because we can have unwanted consequences, since the behavior we do not want is modified until the child develops excessive obedience or resistance. We will continue talking with the psychologist Teresa García on this subject and also on education in general in subsequent installments of this interview.
